Curse

Red Sonya · Jan 19, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

it is my firm belief that "noobs" have it much easier now than when I started playing the game.
Took me many months before I had a max 15^50 for my warrior fx.

You got that right. I remember it wasn't until the desert in Prophecies that I was able to finally get a decent collectors +15 weapon and that was while enchanted. Then Anet progressively started to ruin GW and you could BUY +15^50 weapons from the weaponsmith in Droks. Well of course we all know about the cheaters run to Droks and how they conviently placed the weaponsmith right in that path so more and more people would cheat.

GW was so much more fun back in the first days of it. People grouped with anyone an everyone. HA you could get in a group within a few minutes and off you went into combat land. I had so much more fun back in the beginning days of GW. Now, everything is being devalued. Easy drops of rare equipment dropping out of the Zashiens chest now. There's nothing to value anymore except stupid vanity armor and that's just stupid to put any value on something that has no value ingame. You can't trade it and you can't sell it to other players. One of the greatest things about other mmo's or mmorpgs is the looting system and the ability to find and wear all that you find and if you don't wear it you could sell it to other players.

I loved the days when +3 absorption runes and +50 superior runes of Vigor were 30 to 80 plat. They ruined all that. Now ectoes are down to nothingness what are they down to now 5plat? I remember when they were 17 to 19 plat the good old days of profit. The firengee have probably left GW for better ground and higher profits because Anet has just about ruined every avenue of profit in this game that there was. They have done everything they can think of to ruin looting and getting decent items in the name of botting they say. I highly doubt that as it's not stopping botting at all and it's just giving things away now that people used to have to play for and earn.

Now they introduce Ursans Blessing and the kiddies are running amok with it. There's no classes anymore, just "do you have Ursans Blessing?" if you don't then you don't get into groups for what is left of the few pieces of rare items. It's so bad now I got GWEN and I haven't even hardly played it. There's just no drive there. I could give squat about the vanity value of HOM until I see what vantage it will have in GW2 IF I buy GW2. If they don't go back to old school and start having people EARN what they get instead of giving it all to them out of one chest I doubt I will buy GW2 either. There's no use playing in a world where everyone is the "same". That's no fun at all. I want to be better than others and I want a path to be that type of player and yes I want it to be in the "no monthly fee" game of GW or any other game for that matter. It doesn't have to be GW, but, it has to be a retail version not some off the wall garage made game with sorry graphics and riff raff hackers galore.

Iuris · Jan 19, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Well, Red Sonya, I'd agree with what you wrote - except that I see all the changes as being for better

I'd say about 90% of Anet's choices go right along with my wishes.

As for why people are leaving: because the game is old. You can only play one game for so long, before it grows stale. But for a game of its age, GW is one of the best games ever

maraxusofk · Jan 19, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

this experiment failed in the fact that the limits set was very subjective. superior vigor does not constitute a necessity. a bare run through of the game wit everything that is necessary would be a max weapon, something that is 14-15% , and basic mods (u dont need that +30 for sword, 29 is ok). beaitng the game should provide enought to buy all that.

Destro Maniak · Jan 19, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

the point you miss is that farming is easier and gets you more gold even if
GOD DAMN ANET MADE FARMING INCOME REDUCED TO LESS THEN %25 of the old way

Perkunas · Jan 19, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

And nothing in your posts relates to loot scale at all

Since the 'loot scaling' went into effect, my gold reserve has been steadily going down hill. Newly created characters were unable to support themselves without doing 'extra' work to get their basic armors for each area. This was the reason for my experiment.

I knew nothing about farming 26 months ago. I just played thru the game like I thought it was to be played. For that reason, I did the same with my second 'first', on a virgin account, ie., no gold or materials in storage from previous characters. I was wanting to see how different the game plays today vs. 2 years ago. I had no heores then or now to equip, and PuGed all but the first 4 missions in post.

When I finished my experiment, my extra account has less resourses through regular play than my very first character.

IMO 'loot scaling' does make a difference.

Shakti · Jan 19, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Since the 'loot scaling' went into effect, my gold reserve has been steadily going down hill. Newly created characters were unable to support themselves without doing 'extra' work to get their basic armors for each area. This was the reason for my experiment.

I knew nothing about farming 26 months ago. I just played thru the game like I thought it was to be played. For that reason, I did the same with my second 'first', on a virgin account, ie., no gold or materials in storage from previous characters. I was wanting to see how different the game plays today vs. 2 years ago. I had no heores then or now to equip, and PuGed all but the first 4 missions in post.

When I finished my experiment, my extra account has less resourses through regular play than my very first character.

IMO 'loot scaling' does make a difference.

Loot scaling may make a difference, but I'd say the biggest difference is the heroes/equipment chosen. Honestly, while I think the experement here was good, it's very skewed by the hero runes, weapons etc. Those are NOT necessary by any means and a new char wouldn't have em. Nor to buy every 15k armor etc, that's vanity armor you get when you do have the cash, not something a new char needs, 1.5k max works very nicely.

My hubby to be and I are doing something similar for the helluv it. We both made baby Proph chars on our alt accts. No other campaigns on those accounts, no heroes ... nada. Nothing in storage, no help from their "rich big siblings". We'll make do with armor/weapons/runes etc that we can collect or buy with what they make. Should be fun, and if the point is to see how loot scaling effects a new char, this'd do it.

Nevin · Jan 19, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

You used a lot of salvage kits.

strcpy · Jan 20, 2008, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

IMO 'loot scaling' does make a difference.

Of course - have your opinion. There are still people out there who think the moon landing was fake and the earth is flat. However, for the rest of us loot scale only scales less than full teams drops (and even then a solo farmer gets roughly 2x what one in a team of eight gets not counting non-loot scaled items). The software engineers in this project have had enough mathematical background to know the same thing I do - you have absolute no case regardless of how many fallacies you bring to bear on the "problem". Further, they know things I actually can not (I can only repeat what they have told us) - they have not changed anything for full groups.

If you want something "fixed" then you are going to have to first have a problem. If you wish, keep raging and even if the whole community does so it still will not change things. They can't revert something back to the way it was in the beginning if they never changed anything and it is *still* the way it was at the beginning. If you want it changed *at least* complain about the way things actually work.

Of course, feel free to ignore this advice and tell me I'm stupid. This advice has never seemed to sink in and rarely ever will. It has never done so in any project I have been involved in and it has almost never sunk in on any project I am not involved in (I can count the number of times someone stepped back and rethought things on one hand) and am giving advice on how to possibly sway the developer. People still continue to rant and rational thought never makes a difference: You can not reason someone out of a position that they didn't use reason to come up with in the first place.

Perkunas · Jan 20, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

The OP, like many others that play, feels loot scaling has made a diffierence. He posts an experiment trying to 'prove' it in his eyes. Immediatley everyone started shooting holes in the data. I had already performed a similar 'experiment'. I didn't keep exact figures as this was solely for my purposes, not meant to be shared with the community at large. I decide to post it to help the OP make his point, and now I am ranting.

I remember the day 'loot scaling' went into effect. Not by day/date, but by the immeditae change in drops. For 2 days, I was killing Skales and spiders outside Presearing Fort Ranik for dyes. After killing all the skales, I would run around picking up everything. I was also chatting with a guildmate that was farming somewheres in Factions. I entered town to unload and saw the build update. Salvaged and sold, told guildmate I was getting the update, logged off. Logged back on, headed out the door. The effect was immediate, in 4 trips out, I picked up 7 items total. Meanwhile, the guildmate got the update. 10 minutes later he was asking me what the update was. He said, "The drops have gone to hell." I told him, I see the same thing.

Now when a person talks about not getting drops, it's become a matter of luck. "You're just having a run of bad luck." "I am still making money farming HM." etc.

My first 2 post were not Rants, just backing up what the OP had found. So now, call it a rant. And today, I still say 'loot scaling' made a difference.

cellardweller · Jan 21, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

The OP, like many others that play, feels loot scaling has made a diffierence.

For the record, the op doesn't think that lootscaling makes a differnence to full party gains. The OP felt that casual solo farming was a required to afford the game's static gold sinks (a postition that the experiment demonstrated to be mostly incorrect) and it was this that was hurt by lootscaling.

The most surprising thing I've found is how many posters are perfectly happy with poorer gamers having substandard gear and heroes. Wasn't the whole point of GW to create an enviroment where "success is determined by skill rather than time played"? To my mind a player should be able to afford perfectly equiped characters and heroes from the get go, if that isn't the case then success isn't the basic game precept being violated?

Case in point, the dervish in the blog has finished every mission and quest and is ready to join up with another player for DOA. Doing these quests with 6 heroes (and not abusing consumables/pve skills) is hard enough, I would hazard to say that with under equiped heroes, it would be downright impossible.

Snow Bunny · Jan 21, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

You don't need well equipped heroes, you don't need a perfect weapon, you only need 1k armor.

Total should be <10k

Loviatar · Jan 21, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The most surprising thing I've found is how many posters are perfectly happy with poorer gamers having substandard gear and heroes. Wasn't the whole point of GW to create an enviroment where "success is determined by skill rather than time played"? To my mind a player should be able to afford perfectly equiped characters and heroes from the get go, if that isn't the case then success isn't the basic game precept being violated?

no matter who and how many times it has been stated in over the last 2.5+ years some still fail to make the connection that was for PVP not PVE

BECAUSE NOBODY IS MORONIC ENOUGH TO THINK A 10 HOUR A DAY PVE PLAYER WILL NOT BE MILES AHEAD OF A 5 HOUR A WEEK PVE PLAYER.

unless you really thimk a 10 hour a day farmer is skilled instead of time spent

Nevin · Jan 21, 2008, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

You don't need well equipped heroes, you don't need a perfect weapon, you only need 1k armor.

Total should be <10k

Heh, I'd love to see someone go through the game with noob armor and noob weapons up until their first chance to get maxed armor.

Crom The Pale · Jan 21, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Heh, I'd love to see someone go through the game with noob armor and noob weapons up until their first chance to get maxed armor.

Did that on several chars, its not really hard at all.

In prophicies I completed the desert missions on my war with armor I had purchased in Bergen Hot Springs.

Shortly after completing them, and dying in the Dragons Lair mission, I returned to the desert and aquired max armor from the collectors there. Losing several runes to the random destruction of salvaged items back then I had to purchase or do without most of my runes.

In Nightfall you get max armor before you even leave the newb island and in Factions shortly after leaving the island you can reach Kaineg Center and aquire max armor for the minimum cost.

jimmyboveto · Jan 21, 2008, 04:59 AM // 04:59

46k in debt 0_o. You really shouldn't have had to spend more then 20k throughout the campaign, which you get back through the chests anyways. Really, Armor plus collector scythe is not much. I understand you wanted to pimp your heroes, but I got through with my paragon with heroes that had their starting equipment and no runes at all. I didn't PUG much either.

thor hammerbane · Jan 21, 2008, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Nice report, but I've known this for ages. Back in the day, when guild wars was a month or two old, I got enough money for a 15k set just from doing missions. Now..bleh

arsie · Jan 21, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

We all managed to get by with our first characters, and I am sure it took us quite a while before we figured out how to farm with them.

Expensive runes, perfect weapons, having all the skills, and 10k-15k armour are all not basics.

Cheaper alternatives like 1k armour, Major Vigor, +28/+29 health, 14^50, 19% enchantment, r10/r11 weapons, awesome collector weapons are all affordable without farming*. The game definitely gives you enough for those through normal play.

* everyone draws a different line what is farming/grinding. I reckon if you're going out 8-man and doing a zone no more than 20 times, in order to get gold, materials or collector drops, that's normal play requirements, not farming.

maraxusofk · Jan 21, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevin

Heh, I'd love to see someone go through the game with noob armor and noob weapons up until their first chance to get maxed armor.

2 years ago, i played with pre searing armor al the way til after the desert b/c i jsut started the game and wanted to save till max armor first lol.

Torqual · Jan 21, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Congratulations on a thorough and thought-provoking piece of work.

The main question seems to be over whether your heroes required all that stuff. If your aim was to complete every mission to master-level then I would argue yes, you need better than basic heroes. I'd say that managing masters on Dzagonur Bastion or Gate of Madness with basic heroes is a big ask.

Having said this - a point that no-one raised yet - who needs heroes anyway? The blog and the experiment are built around the assumptions that you are going to get Masters on everything, H/H the whole campaign, and pimp out your heroes to a 'max' level as soon as you enter the level 20 environment (which I would define as Vabbi onwards).

These assumptions are reasonable, but shouldn't be taken to define 'normal' gameplay.

First thing to take into account is that you could have avoided hero use almost entirely by a combination of PUGs and henchmen. If anything, this experiment confirms (unwittingly) that PUGing is not considered normal gameplay. I am not suggesting that you would PUG the explorable areas, just the missions, where is *is* possible to find PUGs if you play at the right kind of day and have patience.

Second thing is that you appear to have set yourself the aim of completing everything on the first attempt. To do this requires over-speccing your party in order to steamroll the campaign. A 'normal' gameplay experience might be to attempt things with a less well-equipped party, failing more often, and getting extra loot in the process.

Third thing is that we have to accept Nightfall is very different to the other campaigns, in that the others were not designed around heroes, and also being the third campaign, the vast majority of players would have the first two chapters and a substantial amount of funds in the bank. If your experiment was run in Proph or Factions I can't see how you would get into a loss.

Final question - can you explain how you got into a loss? This isn't really explained (apologies if I didn't see it - I did take a quick look at the blog). Did you just take money out of Storage when your methodology requires? For example.... 'Dunkoro needs a Radiant Insignia now; rather than waiting for one to drop I'll take the money out of Storage and buy from the Rune Trader'.

I think this is the main problem I have with the methodology. I have fully runed and maxed heroes on 3 characters, but never bought a piece of stuff for them. They take hand-me-downs and stuff salvaged off drops. Point is that I have waited for the drops.

It should be possible to repeat the experiment and make a profit if you only buy things when you have the money, and wait for stuff to drop before dipping into Storage.

Torqual · Jan 21, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Just another thought - if you did all the quests that generate Trade Contracts - did you exchange these for Rubies and sell to the Rare Materials trader? This ought to generate about 10-20k in cash.

Sorry if the answer is somewhere in the blog....don't have time to read it all.